Skytec Starters

[Todd Peterson]

I have been reading about problems that may be encountered using the new lightweight Skytec starters and I way wondering if anyone out there using them has had any problems.

It appears that due to the design of the starter it may not be properly releasing on engine start. This in turn could either burn up the starter or damage the starter adaptor. I have one on N58780 and have had no problems with it but it is something that might bear watching. While starters are not all that expensive replacing a starter adaptor is another story. It is sometimes difficult separating out true mechanical problems from people that have these problems due to their own misuse of the starter.

I am also not to sure at this point how the Skytec differs from the new lightweight TCM starters that are coming with the factory engines.

I will look into this a little more.

[n2099x]

I have over 700 hours on my Sky-tec starter without any problems. On more than one occasion I have blown a hot start and the starter got a workout. My friend has about 400 hours on his which is also on a IO470. His new engine from TCM came with a Sky-tec from the factory a month ago.

Glen

[Todd Peterson]

I think we must have around 200 hrs on our Skytec starter and it to has been trouble free. The new TCM engines come with a lightweight Iskra starter that looks a lot like the Skytec starter. I have noticed on both the lightweight starters that it takes considerably more effort to rotate the propeller backwards than the old style starter.

Considering that the new TCM starters and the Skytec starters appear to be pretty much the same, with about the same amount of reisitance to rotating the propeller backwards I can't really see why there would be a problem with the Skytec. I really wonder if most of the problems associated with the Skytec come from people just abusing the heck out of their starter and not realizing it.

[n2099x]

You are correct Todd, they look very similar I had to go take another look.

Glen

[Squeege]

These have been discussed at length in the CPA Forums. I have *snipped* the responses of Ron Newburg of Niagara Air Parts as he seems to be the "go to guy" in this area.


Louise

I sell the Sky-Tec starters for both the Continentals and the Lycomings. For the Lycomings, buying a Sky-Tec is the "nicest thing you can do for yourself" If you have an 0300D or 0470 Continental with a "new style improved" (TCM's description - not mine) starter adapter, the little 6 pound Sky-Tec will work wonderfully because the "new style" TCM adapter is configured differently internally than the "CLASSIC STYLE" adapter that TCM has been making for the last 50 years. The very highest percentage of us have the "classic style adapter (the good one - my words this time). The original classic style adapter will self destruct and destroy itself if you use a light weight 6 pound Sky-Tec starter because this geared starter will not turn backwards easily to allow the starter adapter clutch spring to fully release. The "new style" TCM adapters, found on most of the new TCM factory overhauls never release fully anyway and drag the clutch spring continuously on the adapter main gear shaft which is spinning at 5500 to 7500 RPM (depending on engine model) all the time the engine is running. You can tell if you have a "new style" adapter by cautiously turning the prop backwards and, if you feel a high degree of resistance, it is the "new style" adapter. You will actually hear the starter moter whirring as it turns backwards. Most of TCM's factory overhauls (except the front alternator "permold" 520/550 engines) now come with the "new style" adapter and a lethargic "ISKRA" lightweight starter. As I said earlier, the "new style" adapter will work with the light weight starters BUT DON"T PUT ONE ONE AN ORIGINAL CLASSIC STYLE ADAPTER or we will get to know each other real soon. PS. bring lots of money
Ron Newburg, President, Niagara Air Parts, Inc.

Do the ultimate test, crank over the engine with the mixture lean so it won't start and then go feel the drag on the prop in the direction it turns while running. Feel the drag - feel the wear it represents! Now start it, turn it off and feel the same drag. That drag is the clutch spring wearing out the main gear shaft and the spring as it rubs against the gear shaft drum which spins at 5500 to 7500 RPM all the time the engine is running. Hell - - it's only money, they print it every day and they make it to spend! Ron Newburg, President, Niagara Air Parts, Inc.

what with "spooling up" the manufacturing and approval of many new / replacement parts for these troublesome adapters. TCM's CSB 02-02 and our new STC (FAA issue pending but looking imminent) solving those problems gobbled up a year.
You and the guys are doing real well explaining and understanding how these adapters work, your info on "shower of sparks" explains some of the mysteries surrounding the occasional "bad hair day" on the "permold" engines (front alternator). There is no doubt that bad / worn impulse couplings break the clutch springs. Now, if we can just get the guys to understand that a 40 year old starter moter in need of service will not allow the starter adapter to properly disengage, causing premature wear on the clutch spring and shaft. It don't take much when they even touch each other at 5500 to 7500 rpm. The same wear occurs when using geared, lightweight starters, guaranteed!!
Ron Newburg

I had the same problem on my 1954 Cessna 180 with an 0470K engine. I measured the starter's draw while starting and found that the starter was drawing hugh amperage. My memory fails me but I think it was drawing over 400 amps! Solution was to install a serviceable starter and the problem went away. I sell a brand new "Energizer" for the Continental engines for $315.00 exchange and will have stock in a few weeks. Overhauled units are another matter, I will post pictures later today of an O/H unit that turned "backwards" out of the box and destroyed the very expensive, newly overhauled starter adapter. I have also seen the ground straps corroded internally causing the same symptoms but start at the starter. How many "decades" since it was serviced?
Ron Newburg, President, Niagara Air Parts, Inc.

The non geared starter must turn backwards two full turns to fully release the tension on the clutch spring so that it does not drag against the drum on the starter adapter main gear shaft (shaft turns continuously at 5500 to 7500 RPM depending on engine model). A geared starter has to turn backwards 8 turns to fully release (geared 4 to 1). A non geared starter in good shape takes 4 to 6 inch pounds (TCM says 8) to turn it backwards, a geared starter takes a whole bunch more, probably 12 inch pounds, it just can not possiblely release fully, it will always drag the clutch spring against the drum on the starter adapter main gear shaft. In 200 hours, I guarantee it will wear a 9 thou. taper on that shaft, probably scrapping it! Don't worry, I will sell you a new shaft for $380.00 (subject to me considering a 2003 price increase after seeing TCM jump it's price by 100% to over $900.00 for the main gear shaft)
Install a geared starter on the classic, original style adapter that 95% of us fly, I'll forgo a 2003 price increase on the shaft based on my expected increase in sales. Bring me money if you ignore me, lots of it!! Ron Newburg, President, Niagara Air Parts, Inc.

the Sky-Tec starter is geared 4 to 1 as is TCM's new Iskra light weight starter. The original 18 pound Delco or 18 pound TCM "energizer starter are not geared. They are direct drive.
Ron Newburg

I have had countless sleepless nights and spent many hours trying to come up with a design that will meet the need for an energetic, light weight, low cost alternative. I have, so far, failed miserably. I am not aware of a new Sky-Tec design that will work. They tried a unit that was geared 2 to 1 but it was lethargic and had the same problems as the existing unit. The little permanent magnet motors need to spin like hell to get the 2 plus H.P needed and then be geared 4 to 1 to drive our TCM adapters. When you gear them, the problems start. The only solution is for someone smarter than me to come up with a fluid coupling between the geared starter and the adapter, much the size of a fat hockey puck. Much like a torque converter or an automatic transmission, this fluid coupling would lock the starter to the adapter for the start and instantaneously release on start up by opening a small orifice internally(solenoid closed - normally open) to decouple, allowing the adapter a full and instant release. The adapter would last forever! (nice dream)
TCM's "new style" improved adapter (their words, not mine) will work with the geared 6 pound starters because of a slightly different internal design. Problem is they break their clutch spring on the hint of a kick back and , because the clutch spring is always in contact with the drum on the main gear shaft, (spinning at 5500 to 7500 rpm) they wear out in 600 to 800 hours. They can be overhauled only once as they can only go standard or M15.(limited by the case hardness). A new shaft is megabucks! The only solution right now is to continue to use the classic style, 50 year old, reliable, long life (my words) original adapter with the 18 pound TCM "energizer".(1938 Buick starter)
TCM has "superceded" this unit in favor of their new 6 pound, geared "Iskra" which is now standard equipment on factory engines. I won't use the Iskra for all the above reasons. My solution was to order in a dozen of the original, brand new, "Energizers" from Electrosystems who still make them. I hope to have them in a few weeks. Cost will be $315.00 exchange. I elected to only supply brand new after having a warranty problem with one of my adapters, destroyed by someone's (no names) freshly overhauled starter that turned backwards (really). I will try to post pictures - what a mess!
Ron Newburg

A redesign of the Continental starter motor must take into account that the starter adapter clutch spring exerts a fair bit of force into the starter motor when it is trying to release. The starter motor actually "backs up" to allow the adapter clutch spring to release. It takes a whole bunch of force to turn a geared starter backwards, that is why the current generation is to be avoided.
This backwards force will keep an overriding clutch "locked up".
Since my last posting on this subject, I have been talking to my friends at Sky-Tec and Gene shared with me some info. on a new design that I think will be the answer to our dreams, light weight, more power, a complete and instantaneous release. More than that I can't say until the patent is issued and FAA-Pma approval occurs. Gene hope to have it done in 60 days, allow 6 months and we may really have something. Such a design would save over 11 pounds and double the starter adapter life!
Ron Newburg

[azb5gh]

In the latest AOPA magazine (February 2003) you can find a good article about starters. It covers the basics on how they work and touches on a few different types.

[Michael]

OK Louise, you posted all that stuff now I need you to interpret what the heck they are he/they are talking about. I have a 1979 182Q with overhauled engine in 1997. I put a Skytech starter in last month. It is VERY hard to turn backwards! How do I know if I have the old or new starter adapter? Am I damaging my shaft as we speak?

FYI, I burned up my original starter when the relay failed and the starter remained engaged after starting. That was interesting. It took me a few minutes to figure out what was going on (I had "voltage" light on and was testing my alternator). The light was actually an indication of over voltage in this case.

Cheers,
Michael
N97AV

[Squeege]

Mike,

I have sent a PM to Ron Newburg of Niagara Air Parts and have invited him to this forum if he would like, or I can forward your email address to him with your permission. If you are a member of Cessna Pilots Association you can see everything at the forums under "maintenance" and search "starters".

I will keep you posted with anything I receive.

Louise

[tomherbst]

I'm trying to figure out what to do with my starter also.

I went to the CPA 182 S&P class last month and they said that the lightweight starter on my newly installed reman O-470U tends to fuse (closed) the solenoid while cranking. They said this is due to an initial draw of 400amp and a constant cranking draw over 250amps. They recommended a procedure of starting with the battery side of the master only while watching the amp meter. The meter will remain pegged high if the starter fails to disengage and it will drop back near zero after the start if the starter does disengage as the current for the starter goes through the same circuit as the ammeter. At that point it is okay to turn on the alternator side of the master and go forward with the rest of the after start checklist.

My current plan is to placard the procedure, replace the existing solenoid with a new one and keep an extra new solenoid in the plane. At the same point, I'm trying to get more info from Continental and/or Cessna about actual experienced problems to decide if I should install an old style starter.

tom

[Squeege]

Michael,

Ron stated he was having trouble emailing you through this site, so he forwarded his reply to me for posting:

Yes, you do have the "new improved" (their words -- not mine) TCM starter adapter. Your clue is the fact that turning it backwards is quite difficult, indeed you may hear the starter motor whirring as it turns backwards. The clutch spring clamps tightly onto a smooth knob on the starter adapter main gear shaft which gear meshes permanently with the engine's crankshaft gear. When the starter motor winds the clutch spring up, it grabs tighter and starts the engine. After start up, the drag on the spring unwinds it a bit and it still sits fairly tightly wound around the now rotating (5500 to 7500 rpm) main gear shaft. It surfs on a bed of oil so that frictional wear is minimized.
This "new improved style" starter adapter is on all TCM factory engines done in the last few years, with the exception of permold (front alternator drive) engines. These engines that "do not have the alternator mounted on the front, passenger side of the engine" will work with the geared, lightweight, Sky-Tec or the lethargic TCM Iskra starters.
These "new improved style" adapters are prone to a short life and broken springs, but that's the design and "that's life"
Hope this helps with your understanding.
Ron newburg, President. Niagara Air Parts, Inc.

[Michael]

Thank you Louise and thank you Ron. If I had to do it all over again I would not install a lightweight starter.

Michael
97AV

[Todd Peterson]

I like the sound of the proceedure suggested by CPA. I will try it and see what happens.

I'm still not sure that there is really all that much of a problem with the Skytec starter. With the higher draw it might amplify problems associated with continued cranking compared to the old style starter. It could be those that are very familiar with the starting of their engine might not encounter those problems whereas those that tend to grind on their starter more to try to get their engine started might have more problems.

[Michael]

On a few occassions I have noticed my graphic engine analyzer flashing the battery voltage. This has happened since I put in the new starter and it seems to be trying to tell me voltage is to high (?). Voltage reading was around 29 volts. Possibly this is a result of the starter relay sticking? When this has happened I've had to push the "step" button to get the thing to display other data. Any ideas here?

Also, I don't have an amp meter...I had one and a mechanic pulled it out during an annual inspection because it was an automotive part. Why don't these planes come with one?

Todd, I enjoyed flying with you on your visit to Palm Springs. I've got those slow landings wired now!

Michael
97AV

[Todd Peterson]

You should still have an amp meter in the engine instrument cluster in between the fuel indicators.

I tried the starting proceedure yesterday with good results. Started with the alternator side of the master off and while the amp meter indicated a discharge while cranking it went to zero once the engine started. Then on with the alternator side and everything worked well. I believe it will be doing this in the future on all engine starts.

[kwmoore]

Sorry, I've not been following this too closely...is there a potential problem with both Skytec and Iskra starters, or just Iskra? Is the root of the problem not in the starter but in how the starter mechanism is coupled to the engine?

[tomherbst]

My understanding is that our discussions have included both how the starter connects to the engine and the impact of the large amount of raw current it takes to turn the lighter starter motors.

I expect both brands use permanent magnets and require lots of amps to turn. There is a small solenoid mounted on the firewall that delivers the current to the starter (the key delivers power to engage the solenoid, the solenoid delivers power to the starter) - I am told it can basically melt in a way that your starter continues to get cranking current after the key is no longer in the start position. If this happens the starter remains engaged and the revolutions of your engine running eat potentially both the connection to the engine and the starter itself but the sound of the engine will mask the sounds of twisting and grinding metal on metal.

The other discussion is the way the starter "clutch" connects to the engine and may mechanically fail to release. This is not something that I'd heard before this thread and if your starter fails in this way I don't think the amp meter start procedure would catch it.

With the different revs of starter adapters, I'm not sure how true it is now, but at the CPA class they also pointed out that there is a large brass gear in the starter adapter and if there is brass in your oil filter/screen, that is the place to look.

tom