Why 260SE???

[Mike Sullivan]

I completed my private pilot in 1967 while in college, but after a year, was unable to continue flying because of family commitment and a flourishing career. I recently sold my business and have taken up flying again. I'm having a wonderful time, although regs have changed significantly since my early days. The new found "bug" has driven me to further training and I'm busy working on an IFR certificate. The fever (and aspirin doesn't help) has me considering the purchase of an airplane. While surfin' the net I discovered Peterson's 260 SE STOL. The site really piqued my interest and I've looked it over more than once, to say the least. Also, I've discovered this site and Avioinic's West and his article about the 260 SE and all are fueling the fire.

Please tell me why I should, or should not, be considering this aircraft with my very limited flying experience.

Thanks.

Mike

:)

[witrakw]

Your post sounds similar to thoughts I had a year ago when I took up flying a year ago (age 51) after30 years away from flying because of family, finances, training, and job realities. My numero uno concern was safety (including my wife's should I "slump" at the controls). The need for speed was not a huge factor since "getting there" is half the fun and also I accepted the reality that for me as a low time pilot(inspite of recent instrument rating) that excessive speed would statistically get me in trouble faster. This latter consideration is akin to buying a longer hitting driver for the golfcourse if you haven't corrected your slice(it just gets you into the woods farther and faster).

I was initially enamored of the composite planes for the obvious reasons of sleeker, sexier, and more modern conceptual aspects of design and aerodynamic principles. I flew both the cirrus 20 and the diamondstar da40. The latter was easy to fly, view was superb, interior design and space for a 6 ft. person inadequate, would cost ~230K for ifr use, and too "slippery"(my inexperience made me worry about rapid airspeed buildup in solid IMC). You would need a larger hangar for this plane--wingspan of 39 1/2 ft.
Overall, a good concept but not quite there yet for me.

It would have been easy to get serious about a cirrus( I live in duluth, mn.). I flew the sr20. Like the diamondstar it had good design, sleek, a much better interior than the diamondstar, good visibility, user friendly panel(except for trying to get at the fuse panel), cockpit was hot in the sun(taxi with wing door open), cockpit wasn't big enough for me, handled nicely, etc. My concerns were again that it might be too sleek and get away from me with my inexperience and the sr20 for my purposes was underpowered and therefore I would have to pay ~330K to buy the sr22(faster, more power and again for me safety concerns). I was concerned with all the troubles that many cirrus pilots were complaining about on their website; the very strong marketing inuendoes by Cirrus that this plane was safer and effectively technologically superior to the older design "spamcans" have not been borne out, in my opinion.

I had a chance to fly the lancair 300 but declined

So, why the 260se??? I was used to Cessna designs and cockpits(150, 172, 182rg, t210). Low stall speed and yet can easily cruise 140 knts plus. With IO470 engine and LOP running it approaches fuel burn and speed, range of the lower powered composites. For me and my inexperience it seemed a better stable ifr platform for a "beginner" like myself. Insurance was a heckuva lot cheaper( a sr20/22 or lancair would have cost a lowtime pilot like myself 7-8K versus 2.5K for the 260se). I am expecting fewer "bugs" to be worked out when I get the plane than what I have read about on the cirrus website.

And as important, Todd's rep factors into this entire equation in having the experience and savvy to be able to find good used 182 airframes as well as QA in his work.

Negatives? A few. By the time you get done with refurbing a 260se it can be as expensive or more than a sr20(but less than the sr22 or columbia 300). You can go a lot cheaper and just put the canard on with some aerodynamic cleanup to just capitalize on the slow speed characteristics of the canard(but then you would have to have the savvy to find a good used 182 without potential hidden problems, old navionics, old interior and glass, etc.). I do worry a little bit about what this will cost me relative to what its resale might be; but my bottom line is that I think that it is the safest thing that I can be flying right now. I am confident that my wife (nonpilot) will be able to walk away from this should I "slump"; she has agreed to take enough lessons to be able to land it, etc.
I think that composites are going to be the major player in the future in GA, but I don't think that they are "there yet" for me.


Just a few thoughts

bill

[kwmoore]

I had my eye on the 260SE since fall of 1996 when I first started thinking about buying my own plane. The performance numbers and safety looked impressive. I met Todd & Jo briefly at AOPA Expo in October '96 at San Jose. Of course I very much liked the looks of 58780 on display, but the one thing that stood out in my memory was the crowd of their customers who gathered and went out of their way to visit their display. Only happy customers would do this.

Fast forward 2 1/2 years: new marriage and a baby. Tina loved to fly but we both were wearying of the rattletraps available for rent through the flying club, and I had recently experienced an engine failure in a club 172 with Tina and Byron aboard. Tina ("Senior Management") decreed in her soft spoken way that if we were to continue flying it would have to be in our own, preferably new, airplane. She liked the Cirrus parachute idea, so down went a deposit on an SR20, with projected delivery in Fall 1999. The Cirrus is a fine aircraft--an SR22 would still be my other choice--but it soon became clear that Fall 1999 would more realistically be Fall 2001 at best, so I revisited the 260SE. In a way not unlike meeting again one's old love, I rapidly realized it was the right decision. Todd had a 260SE Millenium already under construction and I took the plunge. I picked up 8367E in late May 2000.

With 330 hr on N8367E and eagerly anticipated imminent (?) delivery of N812KT, I can say I have absolutely no regrets and it has been better than anticipated. What makes the 260SE stand out? In no particular order...

Reliability. Perhaps my case was unusual--I hope not--but I had 150 continuous hr of trouble-free flying by the time I sold 8367E. The only major thing was right at the beginning: the TCM crankshaft AD. After that there were only some troubles with the (old) transponder, a lethargic TCM starter replaced by a Skytech, and a replaced baggage door lock. Compare this experience to the numerous squawks reported by Cirrus owners and the AD/SB collection on new 172s/182s that rivals the thickness of a Tolstoy novel.

Performance. Solid 145-150 KTAS cruise at 65-70% power, and 152-153 at 75% available if you need or want it--little or no difference compared to the SR20 I flew for a while with OurPLANE--and all that I need. On the other hand speed is a subjective thing and if it is a strong matter of personal satisfaction to cruise at 180+ kt, then "go with your feelings."

Great takeoff, climb, and density altitude performance. Departing at gross on a 90 degree day from a 5000' elevation field? No problem--even a 2400 foot runway is plenty. Need to get to 12,500 to transit a mountain pass comfortably? No problem--and likely you'll never see a rate of climb less than 6-700 fpm getting there. Arriving at a short field or need to exit at the first turnoff? No problem--come in over the fence at 48-50 with just a touch of power held through the flare to touchdown (~12-14") and you'll grease it on in slow motion, then have to add power to get to the first turnoff!

Smoothness. With the IO-470 and dynamically balanced prop the smoothness is remarkable.

Payload and CG envelope. 8367E was 680 lb full-fuel payload. Load it, close the doors, and go, you're within the envelope. When I took delivery I calculated several extreme W&B scenarios and all were at least 1" inside the aft limit.

FUN. I love practicing the short field capabilities of this plane. It makes pattern work a real joy. I often go out just to do this.

Safety. Your margins above stall are much better than a stock Cessna. It is much more forgiving of uncoordinated control inputs at approach and climbout speeds. Go-around at full throttle has you climbing like an express elevator, and even 15-16" of power keeps you flying level at 55-60 KIAS. In an engine out scenario your glide ratio is 10-11:1 and you'll touch down at less than 40 kt. If it's into even a little headwind, your forward speed and kinetic energy to dissipate will be considerably less than a stock 182 and far less than the modern composite planes.

Workmanship. The interior and exterior are much better quality than the new Cessnas and compare favorably with new Cirrus & Lancairs.

The Petersons. They stand behind their product. They're always available to answer questions and provide information, cheerfully and patiently. I was a first-time owner and very wet behind the ears. Todd spent lots of time on the phone with me so I wouldn't seem brain-dead when talking with my A&P. After two years I can say I never received bad advice from them, even for the really "dumb owner" questions.

Concerned about lack of a new plane's warranty? Todd is very picky about airframes. The engine is covered by TCM. The avionics are covered by your installer & OEM. Overhauled flight instruments are too I believe--check with Todd. I never had to use it, but I would bet the paint and interior is covered to a degree as well. Operate the engine the way Todd teaches you and do regular oil/filter changes and your chances for trouble-free operation are good.

I guess it's clear I don't regret my choice...but one really important thing is the smile on Tina's face when we fly in the 260SE. :)

[Mike Sullivan]

Thank you for your posts. Both offered great ideas and answered many questions that were lingering in my mind. One question that remains unanswered though Kevin: why did you sell N8367E?

Like both of you, my primary concern is safety, and I really like the idea of a plane that will fly as slow as a "fast" skate board. Flying down a on a hill on his skate board many years ago, my son bounced on his head and suffered only a mild concussion. So "flying" that slow could be a good thing.

I too was enamored by the new composite designs and thought the idea of a chute was great but after reading the design has a 100% failure rate (one ejection attempt, zero deployments) maybe it wasn't such a good idea to pay for something that doesn't work. The speed factor is nice especially when figuring shorter en route times on long cross countries, but I just don't think I'm capable of handling that speed with my current experience.

I watched the video's on Peterson's web site over and over and was duly impressed by the STOL characteristics of the 230SE, especially the tight turn twenty feet AGL after take-off. Landing in sand in what appeared to be about 30 feet wasn't too shabby either. If you noticed, I live in El Centro, CA about 12 miles from the Mexican border, and I intend to fly my new plane in Mexico, Baja and perhaps even Cent. Amer. The Baja Bush Pilots might influence that decision. The 260SE seems to be the "fit" to a dream.

Kevin, you say that 8367E had a 680 lb full-fuel payload. Did that include passengers or was that over and above passenger weight? Did it have over-sized fuel tanks?

Everyone seems to be really pleased with reliability and workmanship but even so, things happen, and Wichita is a long way from Calif. Is there an authorized repair facility in Calif.

I sent Todd an inquiry email several days ago and he indicated that the Millenium edition could be as high as 210K. He didn't mention avionics. What kind of avionic do you get for that kind of money? What avionics do the two of you have in your planes? Maybe Todd could post here and give a more detailed price structure. I'm interested!!!

Thanks.

Mike

[kwmoore]

First, "full-fuel payload" means the amount of useful load remaining after you have filled the tanks (79 gal. useable for 67E and 2KT). It covers people and baggage/things. Or in C-GOEM's case, a dog! :)

Why did I sell 67E? When we bought it the paint and interior were already underway. They were very nice, but not the colors we would have chosen ourselves if we could have done so. Last spring I took bids on a semi-major avionics addition/upgrade: STEC30 + GPSS, MX20, SL30, GTX327, PM7000CD, & AirCell 1000. When I added the cost of this to the estimated market value of the plane, and consulted Todd's website for the going price for a new Millenium, it occurred to me that if I just did a new one exactly the way we wanted it, I would get a 0-time engine and pay "only" about 6-7% more overall. Downtime for the new one would not be a whole lot more than if we retrofitted and repainted/re-interiored 67E. "Senior management" concurred with this assessment, so I asked Todd to be on the lookout for a really "cherry" airframe. He found one and I purchased it in early September. September 11 threw a bit of a monkey wrench into the financial calculations but I have not regretted doing this. Of course there was also the intangible value of the fun of working on another project with Todd & Jo.

Crazy? Maybe so, but one only goes around once in life...

[kwmoore]

Sorry, forgot to answer this...

The airframe I purchased through Todd for 812KT had no modern avionics so I did a complete retrofit. On the other hand in 67E the KX155, KN64 DME, transponder, audio panel, and Cessna autopilot were already in the plane so I kept them. I only regretted the autopilot and transponder decisions.

812KT will have: PM7000CD, MX20, GNS430, SL30, Air Cell 1000, GTX327, STEC30/GPSS, EDM800 engine monitor, FS450 fuel flow, metal panels with internally lit instruments. No HSI: with the moving maps I feel an HSI does not add value/utility commensurate with cost. Besides, I can look at an HSI page on my handheld GPS if desired. This is entirely personal, as I know others who swear by their HSIs. Your mileage may vary. Total cost, while not inexpensive, was still only 60% of the cost of the most opulent 260SE panel I've seen.

[n2099x]

Why you shouldn't buy a 260se.
#1 If you like fast approach and touchdown speeds.
#2 If you don't like people admiring your plane and asking questions.
#3 If you don't like retractable speeds with fixed gear.
#4 If you want something you have to work on all the time don't buy one.
#5 If you think yours will be faster than 99x forget it.
#6 If you are not fun loving with a sense of humor.

I probably could go on, but this gives my opinion.

As far as mechanical work goes the IO470 was stock in the early 205's and 185's and putting it in a 182 uses mostly stock Cessna parts. The biggest problem is finding a competent mechanic that realizes it is not a $50k 182 its a 200k 260se and you want it treated that way. You could always bring it to Willits for work.

If you buy any configuration of Todd's planes you will be happy. I flew 99x as a 230se for 500 hours before switching to the IO470 and loved every hour of it. But the extra HP and fuel injection is even more fun and safer.

Glen

[witrakw]

Prices on 260/230se's vary considerably depending on what type of airplane frame Todd can find and what model year he can find that is solid enough for his purposes. In general, other than overhauling existing panel instruments or navionics, anything "new" one wants to put in the panel is extra (either at Bevan Rabell electronic install shop that Todd uses in Wichita or at your local electronics install shop wherever you live). I went with Bevan Rabell because of Todd's recommendation and the fact that there is no local install place around where I live in the boonies and I wanted to get the whole plane done at once.

I pretty much put a whole new panel in. New metal upper panels. Out with the old king DME, cessna radios, cessna a/p, ADF, transponder, audio panel etc. Overhauled flight instruments. I thought about doing just a part of the panel and "making do" (sounds spoiled?) but most people I talked with said "if you're gonna do it, do the whole shot" since the install costs to redo it down the road could be substantial just for labor alone.

SO, I consulted with my wife, we sold a few of our children to help defray the cost, and decided to put in the STEC 30 a/p, MX20 MFD, gns 430, pm 7000 audio panel/cd, reconditioned kx155 nav/com, gtx 327 transp, standby electric Att Ind, WX500 stormscope coupled to MX20, separate OAT, JPI 450 fuel comp, EDM 700 engine monitor, warning lites(vacuum, alternator, oil press), GPSS, aux handheld com plug, LC-2 timer, small vacuum gauge

The original panel came with a gns 150xl gps and I kept that in the panel as well.

All in all, the total panel upgrade was 50-55K. I didn't put an HSI for similar reasons to what Kevin Moore said, plus it was an extra 15K. The only extra I would have put in would be some sort of satellite weather link to display on the mx20, but I'm waiting until some of those services sort out over the next year.


As far as maintenance goes, from what I understand from Todd, there is no need for an A/P with experience on the 260se. The canard mechanism is straightforward with perhaps a little bit of verbal "over the phone" help from Todd. The rest is just basic Cessna and depends on finding a good mechanic anyway.

Hope this helps, good luck

bill

[Mike Sullivan]

Yes, I do have a sense of humor! That's why I'm shopping for an airplane, not worrying how I'm going to pay for it, and my wife laughs every time I mention it. It's a kind of sick laugh though ‘cause she knows I'm serious (with a sense of humor). If I do buy a 260se I'm sure the new camaraderie with other owners, and their sense(s) of humor, will be an added highlight too.

Judging from your conversations and what Todd had to say, frame, kit and avionics come to about 200-210K. Can't sell my kids anymore, they're gone. Don't want to sell my Shelby Cobra, it's too hot. But I could sell my wife but then I wouldn't have anyone to nag at me after I take delivery. Sounds like I should just punt, order the plane, and figure out how to pay later.

What's the lead time for delivery?

Anyone want to fly to El Centro (the airport is Imperial) to show off their plane and take me for a spin? We have the best Mexican food in Calif.

Mike

[kwmoore]

Mike, I am down your way several times each year to visit my son at UCSD and my parents in Hemet. Will be happy to trade a demo ride for a Mexican lunch. Burp. :p

It's possible that I may swing by the southland on the way home with 812KT. E-mail or send a "private message" through this forum with your contact info.

I'm just hoping 812KT will be within 10 kt of 99X...

Regarding lead times, Todd is the authority there. HOWEVER, let me point out that your lead time if you wanted to purchase N21396 would be pretty much zero. Dean's plane is available now. See the "marketplace" forum on this site, and also some remarks I made in the Sedona fly-in thread. It would be a fine choice. :)

[n2099x]

I might fly down there to get a ride to lunch in the Shelby Cobra.

Glen

[Mike Sullivan]

Kevin, I'm doing my IFR training at Montgomery field in San Diego. Have been flying about four days a week and studying nights. Decided to do it there because of the controlled air-space and the foggy weather, makes for more authentic conditions. I'm very close to UCSD. I'll email you my San Diego and El Centro info.

Glen, I knew I'd bait someone with the "snake", that's why I put it out there. Come on down, I'll give you a ride not unlike an airplane ride, only we won't have wings. It'll giddie-up to 150mph with it's 427hp small block. I autocross it all the time at Qualcomm stadium. The headers are off now but it'll only take a couple hours to get ‘em back in place. Or, maybe I could take the Cobra to San Diego, there's good Mexican food there too, but not quite the same as El Centro.

I'll check out the ad for Dean's plane.

Thanks.

Mike

ps there's going to be a cobra run in San Diego a week from today, May 19th. It's being organized as we speak. You both could fly down and one could ride with me and I'll bet I could find an empty seat for the other.

[n2099x]

I already have plans for this weekend or I'd be on my way.

Glen

[Mike Sullivan]

Me too, I've got my son's graduation from San Diego State.

Mike

[acfentiman]

Seems like you have had a few replies already. Anyway, I was a low-time (100 hours) pilot in 1997 and by then I had already spent a year looking for the perfect aircraft (safety, utility, reasonable speed, etc.). I am very detail-oriented and meticulous and I looked at every possible aircraft; either new or used. From the many different aircraft considered, the 260SE came out the CLEAR winner. I have now flown some 600 hours in N52459 and she is just like my wife; after all the time we have spent together, I don't have one single regret and I have nothing but wonderful memories to dwell on! So buying a 260SE was the second smartest thing I have ever done in my life. I am in my mid-forties and hope to have another 40 years of flying and frankly, I don't think I will ever feel the need for any other type of airplane. The 260SE is a great product and has garnered a group of great people (the Petersons and all of my fellow 260SE-owners). Hope this helps you. Andrew.

[Mike Sullivan]

For everyone's information, I am probably going to have a demo ride in Dean's plane on Thurs. I have to firm this up with Jonathan, tie up a few loose ends and change my schedule a bit to make it work.

I'm really looking forward to the ride and would like to thank everyone for their genuine concern and input to me, a perfect stranger. Believe me, all of the information will help in making an educated decision.

I'll post again in a couple of days after the ride.

Thanks to all.

Mike

[kwmoore]

Mike, Dean's plane is back at Santa Monica as of Tuesday 5:00 pm. It's all clean and running great. Enjoy.

[Pete of N978PB]

Mike,

I concur with all the thinking already noted above.

One point of correction, however, when it comes to selling your wife. Usually it works the other way; "she" gets the dough while "he" gets nothing but the monthly support bill!

Todd turned over the keys to 978PB to me in early April, and I now have 25 hours in the aircraft. Having owned and loved a 182RG for 15 years, I can now say that I far prefer the 260SE, even though it gives up a about 5-7 knots. Simply put, it's very smooth and stable, and it's a barrel of fun at slow speeds.

I just returned from a 10 hour round trip to Florida, and at each stop found myself explaining why my airplane had cat whiskers. After landing at a backwater airport in northeastern Georgia (cheap fuel, of course!) and while taxiing to the fuel pump, a chap called on Unicom and asked me if it was a 260se by Peterson, and did it really cruise at 150kts. Affirmative, although I've taken to a 65% power setting for about 142kts.

Pete

[Mike Sullivan]

Jonathan arrived at MYF at about 12:30 yesterday afternoon while I waited for him on the tarmac. I knew it was him because I spotted those famous cat whiskers on the nose of the plane as I waved him down. What a pretty plane, I thought to myself. I could barely contain my excitement and emotions as I waited for him to shut down the throaty engine. As Jonathan climbed out of the cabin I caught my first glimpse of what looked like a bran new 727 panel. So much glass for such a small plane! Shaking Jonathan's hand and introducing myself he seemed as effervescent as I felt. Show me the plane I almost demanded, give me the tour, it's beautiful!

The first thing I had to inspect was the "cat-whiskers". I tried to wiggle them up and down a bit to test their sturdiness but they wouldn't budge. They were solid, and after all, they didn't fall off on his trip down from SMO , and they survived the 190 hours in planes log book. What a unique idea I thought, that Peterson guy must be some savvy dude.

I ran my hand over the top of the cowl to see if I could feel the metallic flakes in the navy blue paint. Nope, smooth as glass just like a new BMW. Next I made my way to the cockpit and discovered the soft tan leather upholstery, and commenting to Jonathan, he acknowledged, yes the leather was imported from BMW in Germany. I knew it, and the fit and finish of the cabin confirmed that I was climbing into a BMW 260se manufactured by an American.

Jonathan climbed in next to me as I sat in the right seat. Show me the avionics I asked. He pointed out the PMA 7000 audio panel, and the Garmin GNS 430. The Sandel EHSI was impressive but the MX 20 MFD looked like a display out of Luke Skywalker's space ship. I have never seen anything like this.

Let's get in the air I told Jonathan, I want to see this stuff light up. As we taxied out to 28L I leaned on his shoulder trying to get the best advantage point for viewing the dials. Impressive!

After runup, we got clearance from the tower for a left downwind departure. Jonathan taxied out to 28L, got the plane lined up on the center line and STOPPED. What's he doing I thought, let's get this plane rolling and up in the air before another plane sets down on top of us. His toes went up on the brakes, he pulled 20 degrees of flap, adjusted the mixture and gave it full throttle, 2500 rpm's of McCauley prop. What's he doing? He released the brakes, pulled on the yolk and the front wheel was off the ground in five feet. Their seemed to be so much power, I wondered if we needed a cheater wheel on the bottom of the tail to prevent any dragging. At about 100 feet AGL Jonathan made a 60 degree banked turn downwind. Amazing, amazing, amazing !!

We quickly climbed to 2500 feet and called Gillespie tower for clearance to cross over their delta airspace. Permission received Jonathan said, "the planes yours". Of course he had it all trimmed out so I didn't do much but hold the wheel and feel like a limo driver in his new BMW limo on the way to the prom. But even so, I managed to get in a few shallow turns, first this way and then that. At the same time I eased the yolk back, gained 200 feet and then eased it forward to lose the 200 feet. It felt great!

We headed East, paralleling I-8 for a few miles and then turned North toward the Julian VOR. Several miles South of the Julian VOR Jonathan took back the controls of the plane and slowed it down to 61 kts with 40 degrees of flap. We made several 360's at a VERY steep bank and the plane never wavered. It was solid as a rock. He gave me back the controls and told me to try some tight turns. As I rolled into the turn I didn't have to fight the yolk by pulling back on it harder and harder as required in a factory Cessna. The plane didn't lose altitude and it didn't feel mushy. It just kept turning until I rolled out. I never felt the sensation of it wanting to fall out of the sky. It was convincing.

I asked Jonathan how it handled in a stall, he said, try it. I stretched the yolk back toward my belly further and further with strong right rudder and the nose pitched upward. I kept waiting for the horn, but truthfully, I can't remember if I ever heard it. The nose dropped slightly but hardly enough to make a blip on a scaled graph. This plane is full proof, I thought! It won't let you make a mistake even an intentional one.

After an hour or so of flying around the peaks and valley's of East County San Diego we headed back to Montgomery. Losing altitude we dropped back down to 2500 feet and got clearance through Gillespie's delta space. I remembered earlier in our conversation he had said this plane could hover almost like a helicopter.

As we made our way toward MYF we were number two in line behind another Cessna. He was at very low altitude, almost too low, and we were gaining on him. The tower called and instructed us to do a 360 to make space between us an the other Cessna, UNLESS we could slow down to 60 kts. Jonathan, with a huge smile on his face, responded, Oh yes, we can slow down to below 50kts. He pulled back throttle, set in 40 degrees of flap and the plane began to HOVER down slowly just like a helo. I didn't notice the AI at the time but the plane seemed to be in very slow motion. Slowly and gently, even with a gusting crosswind, the plane set down almost vertically on the numbers. Just before touchdown Jonathan put in 200rpm's and we went into a perfect flair and touched down at fast skateboard speed, 40mph. I was at a loss for words. Again, Jonathan proved that Peterson is a real cool dude. :D :D :D

[kwmoore]

I just can't tell from Mike's post whether he had any fun or not. :rolleyes:

I suspect we can welcome another pilot to our 260se family...

[kwmoore]

In response to Pete's post under the "poll," several posts of the type he was requesting are here. I am sure a number of you could offer more!

[Pete of N978PB]

Thanks, Kevin.

The point of my post yesterday, although not clearly stated, was that I found it interesting to learn that so many of us (as a percentage) had alternatives to the 260SE that are (1) faster, (2) sexier, (3) perhaps better built and (4) capable of holding more longer.

Apart from the fact that in women we all want one that meets the enumerated criteria (think about it guys), it just seems that the all around capability of the 260SE exceeds the allure of those others' appeal, and some specifics on that point would be interesting to hear.

Pete

[kwmoore]

...for the benefit of a fair number of new members who may not have seen it.