What constitutes a 260se?

[tomherbst]

I've been quietly reading the yahoo forum and now this website. One of the common discussions seems to be Todd looking for airframes worthy of rebuilding that can be sold at a reasonable price with a reasonable profit. It sounds like these planes get a very detailed going over.

At the same time, I've seen a variety of "Peterson upgrade" or "260se" used plane ads in different places like trade-a-plane. Is it possible to assume anything about the condition of these planes? Or is it likely that somone owned a 182 and flew it to KS and paid the price for the upgrade, no matter what the condition of the airframe, etc and it could well be a pile of crap with a new engine and a cool canard?

thanks -

tom

[dean]

The very short answer is the following:

The basic conversion can be as simple as a stol/canard kit and 230hp engine. The most elaborate Millenium Editions give you an almost brand new airplane (minus avionics) that FAR EXCEEDS what a new 182 is.

I find the planes vary with their pilots. Some perfect, others maybe not as shipshape as I'd want to fly in.

However, this has NOTHING to do with Todd's end. I feel safe in saying Todd won't do any work on an airplane he doesn't see as fit. He takes pride in everything he does.

But once they leaves his shop... Then it is on the pilot. Bad engine management can kill a new engine in 200hrs. Rotten landing techniques, or lack of routine maintence can make even a Peterson plane into something less than air-worthy.

If you haven't, check out www.260se.com Todd's site

[dean]

You can always ask about an individual plane here. We are a small community. I bet between all of us, Todd especially, we could tell you a lot about any given plane.

[Todd Peterson]

When looking over a used airplane it is smart not to assume anything. As you pointed out we will modify a customers airplane along with building up those airframes that I find.

Needless to say those airframes that I bring back here are in my opion the best "top quality" airframes that I can find. Usually this means rejecting about three out of every four airplanes I look at. Of all the things I do related to building the 260SE this is the job that is the most time consuming and the one I like the least. It is also in all probability the most important thing I do. I am a firm believer in having a top quality airframe to start with.

I do not know of any customer supplied airplane that we have modified that I would consider unairworthy when it arrived here. The quality of these aircraft do vary however. Although it is not widely known we even shipped out some 260SE kits in the late 1980's and the entire conversion was done in the field. This was terminated due to the lack of quality control we saw in the installations.

Bottom line here is if you are thinking about purchasing a used 260SE have a good prepurchase done and if there are any questions feel free to give me a call.

[kwmoore]

Have this done by a 3rd-party A&P (not one regularly used by the seller). It may cost you quite a few hundreds of $$ but think of it like doing all the necessary inspections on a home purchase--the magnitude of your investment is comparable, never mind the fact that you'll be entrusting this machine with your life!

Of course a main concern will be the engine/prop and their condition, but the airframe is worthy of at least as much attention. Have them look in virtually every inspection plate for corrosion. Also look at the fuselage interior beneath the cabin floor, and around the maingear attachment points to the fuselage. Todd can give you additional pointers on what to inspect.

Is there evidence of work or modifications done on the plane that are not in the logs? ADs complied with? SBs?

If you're not licensed and don't have a high-performance endorsement, have a CFI you trust go for a demo flight in the plane to see how it flies and feels.

It's a big investment and thus worth doing a lot of homework in advance.

[dean]

You'd have Todd do it. I only say this because no one knows their way around these babies. If i were going to buy one today, I'd do my best to get his opinion. No, its not mandatory, but El Dorado is the Mecca for 260SE owners. Sooner or later you have to pay it a visit.:)

[tomherbst]

So "Millennium" is the designation that indicates a totally rebuilt plane?

I'd never consider buying a plane w/o a detailed prebuy. A retired guy I used to work with is partners with an A&P in Washington state and I would ask them to fly to look at any plane I would consider buying. He is totally anal, but as a 65 year old former airshow pilot, that is likely why he is still around. His airshow plane was highly modified super cub that he got his own STC's on because he doesn't believe in the "Experimental" category.

The ad that got me thinking about this is:
http://www.trade-a-plane.com/unprotected/specs/13013.html

$145k is budget friendly, but I was trying to figure out what he is selling before even calling him, much less flying to Idaho to look at it. Was trying to understand the differences between this plane and say the one that Kevin sold last year or Dean is selling now, beyond Dean's incredible panel. Is the canard the only part that is "Peterson" in this ad?

If it is similar to buying a local 1979 moderate time $97k 182 and adding a $25k canard, it is maybe not such a deal.

There is another in Georgia that I did call about. It turns out that one has the 260 engine, but it is a Robinson STOL.

I'm in LA for the weekend. Maybe I should call about Dean's plane:) .

thanks -

tom

[Pete of N978PB]

I took a look at the ad you linked, and it doesn't seem quite right, as follows:

It says "Total Peterson STOL" which I would interpret as Todd's complete job - Canard, IO-470 engine, prop to match, cleaned up drag producers, refurbished airframe, new paint & interior, etc., etc.

But the ad then says "Engine rebuilt by Custom Airmotive", and I am not aware that Todd farms out his engine work. He's just too damned picky to do something like that.

That's a red flag for you to check out.

Maybe the seller can tell you exactly what he means by "Total". As others have indicated, it would be wise to establish a working relationship with Todd in your quest to buy.own a 260se.

Good luck in your efforts to own a great aircraft.

Pete

[witrakw]

as a recent purchaser of a 260se from Todd, I too went through some of the uncertainty about what some of the terms "260se", "millenium", "refurbished" etc. meant. Coupled with the different airframes that Todd comes across(with different levels of quality, navionics, structural changes and different levels of depreciation when glass quality, wing tanks, tires, etc. are taken into account) all of these variables did have me a bit confused at times. Probably more out of my own ignorance than anything else!

I wonder if there is a more spelled out and explanatory "shopping" list that could be detailed in the www.260se.com website that could help with some of the terminology and what it means. As opposed to gluing the telephone to Todd or Jo's ear 24/7.

Alternatively, I'd bet that anyone who has purchased a "260se" (or any variant) who be happy to supply a phone number or email address to anyone who has questions about these differences.

bill

[Todd Peterson]

You're right in that there are so many options it does get a little confusing at times.

The big thing to remember is there are basically two types of aircraft we built up here. One is the used airframe with just the modification only. This is the straight 260SE, 230SE or whatever. The airplane has the complete upgrade but nothing has been done with the airframe itself. Same paint, interior, etc. that it had when it came in. Most of the customer supplied airframes fall into this catagory.

The other is a Millenium Edition 260SE which denotes a completely refurbished airframe in addition to the complete modification. These airplanes have custom paint, interior, glass, etc. with a good going over of the airframe. In most cases they also have upgraded avionics. We generally prefer to find the base airframe ourselves for the Millenium Edition. Normally I will not accept a customer supplied airframe for this unless the airplane meets our standards.

Ninety percent of our airplanes fall into one of these two catagories. There will be exceptions where a customer supplied airplane will also get paint, interior or other work but we generally don't go through them like we do the Millenium Edition's.

Quite a few years ago we did install field overhauled engines if the customer requested it. About five years ago we stopped the practice as the field overhauled engines did not seem to have the reliability of a factory engine.

As you begin looking at the used market if you have any questions give me a call.