Platinum Series Engines?

[morrisond]

Well, I keep searching for the perfect airplane for my needs and I always end up back here. My two big sticking points seem to be having to deal with sqawks on an 25+ year old airframe(time and no warranty), and no glass cockpit.

Ideally Todd would just bite the bullet and adapt the Canard for the Current G1000 182 with the Lycoming engine to keep costs down. The alternative for me in this scenario is to just get an 2004-2005 T182T (Turbo for better above standard day takeoff performance), put X-Stol and VG's on and call it a day. Should be able to get stall down to about the 40 knot range, take off roll and landing roll of about 600'.

However, even with a modded G1000 182 it still isn't an 260SE, as your climb, useful load etc aren't nearly as good.

In an attempt to make it somewhat equivalent you could always put the G600 in.

The last thing would be engine. Can you get an Platinum Series IO-470 for less vibration?

[morrisond]

The other Big thing where the 260Se wins is one the Ability to add TKS and still have a 35 knot stall speed. I have to check with TKS but adding Wing Extensions to an G1000(not certified yet for TKS but probably will be soon) 182 would probably negate the ability to add TKS.

To me the Ultimate Safe airplane is an 260Se with TKS, a chute, Live traffic, and G600 for situational awareness.

Anyone know of a large Certified Glass Artificial Horizon other than the $30,000 G600?

[LEVON HOPKINS]

respectfully: I believe you are missing a basic point certainly my reason for trying to get to the full 260SE...after three years...all I need now is the engine IO 470 260HP.. is simply this. A fully researched 182 preferable with perfect maintenance, perfect condition, long range tanks std., 3150 max. gw etc. in the 78,79,80 years I BELIEVE IS SUPERIOR to a brand new 182. They are not using the engine they want because it is the best...they're using an engine that is own and sold by "their owner" who is the boss. It may be the best engine and it just as likely is not. A new work force may be able to build the 182 as good as the original well experienced work forced built in 1980 but logic and comman sense says not. The glass cockpit may be wonderful, but I believe it has already killed a few airplanes with their trusting pilots. Look at the cost of "warranty" approaching over $100+ a month..there is certainly something wrong with the reliability of the tubes. I warranty a lawn mower engine in commercial operations often exceeding 2500 to 3000 hours FOR THREE YEARS and it is a complicated Electronic Fuel Injected, aluminum block 31HP American Made engine operating in the worst enviornment one can imagine as far as dirt, dust, snow etc. is concerned. Money is not the object, I'll have as many dollars in my plane as a new 182 and I believe I have the better and certainly safer plane. If the engine quits, I would not give you five cents for any of the glass. Maby a 496 with "nearest" button but a 530 and a 496 as back up ok, ok and an EDM 700 and an "ultra vision" back up if no power ...but not an all glass cockpit that failed a actor pilot flying a G-IV into DC area, or a 767, 747 and numerous other planes that used NON-COMPUTOR BASED information to save thier day. Just an opinion. Levon

[kwmoore]

Can you get an Platinum Series IO-470 for less vibration?
Yes you can put in a platinum engine. It's only money.

I am skeptical that you will get less vibration. I have flown plenty of hours in SR22 Centennial and G2 aircraft with platinum engines. Neither of my 260se's gave up anything to these planes in smoothness. They both had the non-platinum (gold? silver? bronze?) factory remanufactured IO-470. Whatever you decide, be sure to have a dynamic prop balancing done. I think this will make a bigger difference than the engine choice.

If you're infatuated with a glass panel, spend the $30K for a G600. OTOH, if it's situational awareness you're worried about, spend $8K for an MX20 or EX500, or $3K for a GPSMAP496. A PFD really doesn't do much for situational awareness. Its main benefit is the large attitude indicator presentation.

With some 150 hr in Avidyne-equipped Cirrus, I like glass panels, don't get me wrong. However I have seen their dark side too--myriad and varied failures that grounded the Cirri when I would have been happily flying in my 260se, every time. It's no wonder that so many glass panel owners fork over the ~$1600 annual bill for warranty coverage. I am perplexed by the contradiction of your concern about a "25 year old airframe without a warranty" yet simultaneous seemingly uncritical regard for glass panels. I think it quite likely that the 260se's airframe will be more reliable than the glass! :confused:

I have flown both 182T and 260se. The 182T is a good airplane, no doubt, and will satisfy the needs/desires of many pilots. However I would personally never choose one over the 260se. The latter runs rings around the 182T in payload, takeoff, climb, landing distance, and slow speed safety/maneuverability. It is also similar or somewhat faster in cruise, using at least 1 gph less than the less efficient Lycoming IO-540. And even without a glass panel, it's certainly not a clone of every other aircraft on the ramp! :)

[Pete]

FWIW, my two cents re the IO-470, balanced prop, and smoothness.

I recently sold 978PB for personal physical reasons unrelated to the aircraft itself. In the absence of those reasons, there would have been no sale, period.

I hangared and flew it from an airport with an active university-based flight school operated by owners who also have an active Cessna dealership.

I flew with one of their instructors every six months. They uniformly commented upon how smooth the engine was. The flight training program includes two recent model C-182s with glass panels, plus a Bonanza, on the flight line.

Maybe this is something unique to my 260SE, but I opted for prop balancing at Todd's recommendation, not to mention the quality of his IO-470 installation reputation.

Pete

[morrisond]

Well I guess the better way to ask this is how "Sqawk" free were your planes when you got them from Todd? What maintenance issues did you have in the first year?

Good points about the reliablity of Glass and a tested airframe. I would be happy with an MX200, would really just like a big Artificial Horizon for flying IFR. That is the one feature that really draws me to the G1000.

Does anyone make a regular Guage that has an oversized Artifical horizon?

[LEVON HOPKINS]

Todd's work is squawk free with me after about 3 years and 550+ hours. Unfortunately I did get an unneccessary top and a new prop that simply has too much vibration in the system; BUT TODD's work had nothing to do with these east coast decisions. Of course the canard when you look at the tip works like a fine tuning fork for the fact that I did notice the excessive vibration first when checking flight controls and for the first time ever (after 212 hrs of canard flying) on the ramp check the tip of the canard was vibrating probably 2.5 - 3" and this alerted me to the "problem" of unbalanced prop....took plane back to the prop shop in FL. that checked the prop against the engine got an unbalance of "2" on both the front measured against the back of the engine" This told the shop owner that the prop was not contributing to the vibration. I asked him what was the source? He did not know. Probably caused by weaker cylinder or something from the top. Now I lean carefully with the EDM 700 AND the Canard THUS GIVING ME the best engine condition with the smoothest flights possible. ONE WARNING: Don't ask Todd or JO a question unless you want and can handle the absolute truth. And when he has trained you and he says "your ready." You can absolutely believe him and any promise verbal or otherwise made to you is a personal commitment. The otherside of that coin is the same. Don't him/haw wishy/washy these great guys. They simply don't have time for it. Just my opinion and advice and it cost you nothing so it might not only be worthless it could be dead wrong. I think the reason we guard their business is because I want them to remain profitable, having fun, doing masterful work so that I can complete my 260 installation when the 230 HP engine is used up per Todd Peterson's Advice while I was sitting in his shop with holding a fistful of money. "That is a good engine right now...get the XSTOL done...then when that engine needs a top do it then buy my conversion when you need it!" I took my $ home and he was exactly right. Great team. Levon

[breaktime]

This year, with a little over 1200 hours on my IO-470, I had a top overhaul. Still no canard or airframe issues. We started with a good clean airframe and we have kept it that way. I will be going in for paint in January (still the original paint on mine). If Todd can help find your airframe, I would prefer the old vs. new for the reasons already stated by the others plus my wonderful experience with the 260se. It was/is the ideal plane for my purposes.
Good luck whatever you decide.

George

[kwmoore]

I would be happy with an MX200, would really just like a big Artificial Horizon for flying IFR. That is the one feature that really draws me to the G1000.

Does anyone make a regular Guage that has an oversized Artifical horizon?
I think you can get a non-certified EFIS to mount on the yoke. Click here (http://www.pcflightsystems.com/) for an example of one that runs on a PDA.

Regarding a larger-than-standard certified AI, I'd recommend you call Aircraft Spruce & Specialty. If one exists, they'll know about it.

[Meghan]

Sandel looks to be certifying a 4" x 4" AI along with the similar sized HSI-all-in-wonder for the upscale markets. The 4550 and 4500 respectively. Probably going to be very expensive, and I assume would necessitate a custom panel *and* custom glare shield to make it fit in a 182.

[morrisond]

I saw that Sandel, it looks beautiful, but it makes the G600 look cheap! I think it is something like $60,000.

That yoke mounted system looks too small, but the full backup Pocket PC System would be a neat addition.

I met Todd at AOPA and agree with everyones assesment he is incredibly knowledgeable and I felt I could trust him right away.

I plan to make it out to Kansas this spring/summer to take Todd up on his offer to take me up for a spin.

[kwmoore]

I plan to make it out to Kansas this spring/summer to take Todd up on his offer to take me up for a spin.
Keep bad karma at bay by not saying:

"Take it out for a spin."

"Fire it up."

"My 10-day IFR was a real crash course."

Surely this crowd can come up with some others!

:) ;) :p

[Pete]

Could it be that Kevin writes monologues for Jay Leno in his spare time?

[LEVON HOPKINS]

Morrison, for what its' worth....I will not fly in a "Brand New Air Plane." I also will not fly "for free." If I can't contribute $ and if "THE" plane isn't well proven with atleast one oil change and a thorough check out..."I ain't going...unless Todds's with me." I won't bore everyone 'today' with war stories about "free flight;" but, every single one has just about cost me my life. (three flights in 30 years). No more "free flying." Levon

[morrisond]

It reminds me of the flight I went on this Summer. An 172XP dropped into :) our strip, his friend needed to borrow a car, so I loaned him mine while the Pilot took me for a flight. We were doing some maintenance on the strip at the time so only about 1000'-1200' was useable. Not knowing as much as I do now I thought nothing of the shorter field length and the Pilot seemed comfortable. The takeoff was very interesting, we cleared the berm at the end of the runway by about 10' and then when we were up got within a few hundred feet of a midair.

Didn't scare me that much though as I started lessons two weeks later! It just made me want lots of power and Active traffic with Good situtational awareness.

I got an email back from the TKS people. You can put Xstol on with the TKS system - Yeh! Although the panels will not cover the extensions.

On another another note has anyone seen the Hartzell ASCII Prop? It supposed to be quite light - and it's very sexy. The 260se needs one!

Throw TKS in the Back to balance it out.

Was staring at my strip again this weekend, Unless the NGP or Da50 have wicked Shortfield performance it looks like a 260se makes the most sense for me.