King Katmai tour

[Todd Peterson]

While we are still in the process of planning it looks like we might be able to attend the IBEX flyin hosted by the Utah Back Country Pilots Association over the May 6th weekend. We haven't decided where we will be staying yet but we're looking forward to visitng some of Utah's back country strips during this trip.

If anyone wants to see or ride in the new IO-550 powered King Katmai give me a call and I will keep you posted on our travel plans.

[morrisond]

Hi Todd,

Do you have much time on it yet? Can you tell us anything about it's Performance?

[kwmoore]

If anyone wants to see or ride in the new IO-550 powered King Katmai give me a call and I will keep you posted on our travel plans.
For now, you can see a couple of photos here. (http://www.260sepilots.org/gallery/Katmai!?&page=5)

The size of the prop is worthy of note. :eek: Todd can comment on its diameter. Looks like you could better measure the power output in "pounds of thrust" rather than horsepower. :cool:

[Todd Peterson]

The installation went well but I am not ready to put out any performance figures at this time.

[morrisond]

That Prop is a monster. I was playing with the PPONK tip speed calculator at 2700rpm and lower than -32F the tip speed exceeds Mach 1 :)

A little noisy?

Will you be able to put an IO-550 on a Regular gear Katmai? What prop would you use?

[Todd Peterson]

It is not as quiet as the IO-470 on take off but it is nowhere near as noisy as the IO-520.

I plan on offering the IO-550 on the Katmai with a variety of landing gear configurations. We will also be introducing the 300SE next year with this same engine.

The diameter of the propeller will depend on the size of the nose wheel tire being used. For the standard 5.00x5 nose wheel we will use an 82 inch prop, for the 6.00x6 nose wheel we will use either an 82 inch or an 84 inch prop, for the 8.50x6 nose gear we will use either the 82 inch, 84 inch or the 86 inch prop.

I will say this again. For the average owner that spends most of his time cruising around below 12,000 feet I still think the IO-470 engine is the best, most reliable and fuel efficient engine we offer. If on the other hand you spend a lot of your time above 12,000 feet, haul a lot of weight out of really short strips or operate out of very, very short strips at high elevations the IO-550 will be your best choice. It will certainly beat turbo charging as the initial cost, reliability and maintenance will be far better.

[morrisond]

Those are all 3 Blades right? Has the experience made you reconsider 3 Blades for the IO-470?

[kwmoore]

Has the experience made you reconsider 3 Blades for the IO-470?
:confused: Why bother? The performance of the current configuration is outstanding, there are no downsides. I can't understand at all how one could justify the time and cost of certification for no meaningful gain in performance or utility. PPP already keeps a very full production schedule with customers who are delighted by the product in its current form, I don't see where is the ROI in the fairly substantial effort needed to put in place a such a change that would effect at best a minuscule enhancement of the product's capabilities. It makes no business sense.

In contrast the recent IO-550 "King Katmai" appeals to a new set of potential customers with needs that the 260se/Katmai could not be guaranteed to address: those who operate heavily loaded airplanes out of very short strips at high density altitudes and routinely cruise in the teens. Todd will describe its performance here pretty soon but from what he has told me, it renders moot any plausible argument for turbocharging. This product may in addition capture some customers to whom "more power" is not a need but a matter of personal satisfaction. Who knows, if I'm still flying when my IO-470 reaches TBO, I might put in an IO-550 just for the "rush" during my final few years of aviating. I suspect he'll sell a lot of 300se/King Katmais, perhaps they will account for 50% of his production next year and beyond. The potential ROI is obvious, worth the speculative investment in certification.

Now it's my turn to say, "please don't take this as a bash, but..." I have noticed that the pilot population has more than its fair share of folks who are instantly, often uncritically infatuated with "the latest thing." Glass panels, composite props, diesel engines, you name it. Many--not all--of them are paragons of rapt credulity when they read the accompanying performance claims. Those of us who have been in aviation for a number of years know to wink and nod knowingly when presented with such marketing claims because we've seen how often reality falls short.

I know many such folks who are Cirrus customers & COPA members and count them as friends. I am happy that they are early adopters on the "bleeding edge," because the frustrations they endure--willingly for the most part--as beta testers will make future customers' ownership experiences much more pleasant. Meanwhile I was happily out flying my capable and reliable 260se's while their Cirrus (or Columbia, etc.) were in the shop having all of that marvelous leading edge wizardry trouble-shot, sometimes unsuccessfully. I even provided them shuttle rides on several occasions in my 260se when they needed to drop off or pick up their plane from the Cirrus Service Center. ;)

[morrisond]

Hi Kevin,

You can count me in as one of those who likes to read about all the latest and greatest and gets excited about it, as doubtless you know based on the Forums we both frequent.

There is a reason though that I keep coming back here and that is that some form of one of Todd's Creations probably makes the most sense for my needs. If I had all the money in the world I would move to Kansas and talk Todd into helping me start up a company to build a modern take on the 260Se - Katmai, keeping the low speed ability of the Katmai but expanding it's envelope on the upper end, improving Comfort, safety etc.. Basically a High Wing Cirrus/Columbia with Canards steerable nose wheel and a less than 40kt Stall speed.

But unless i win multiple Lottery's that aint going to happen. :)

On my posts on things like 3 blades, quite frankly it's pure Cosmetics and a personal preference. Walking around Airports when I see an 182 with a 3 blade, I think modern, that looks great. I think the Prop that would look the best on the 182 would be the New Hartzell Composite off the TN22.

Based on the extensive research I have done, If you want an airplane that can hold four and go good distances in Comfort I don't think you can beat the Katmai-260se.

This may be completely irrational but the only things that gives me pause is what happens to Aluminum Monocque Airplanes in crashes, seeing pictures like we saw of the 172's turned into scrap at Emery Riddle, and the fact that the basic Airframe has been around for 50 years, and doesn't look new. I would feel safer in an 26G safety cockpit without fuel hoses running through the cockpit (Da40XL) or at least a steel safety cage like an Husky, no data to back this up, just my perception based on what I have read. Pure vanity but it's a lot of money for something that doesn't look materially different than something you can buy for 25% of the cost. My vain side is always drawn to the Hot planes on the Ramp like the COL's, Diamond's and the Cirrus, and really classic looking aircraft like the Husky

On the positive side you would be flying so slow in a forced landing in an Katmai that this shouldn't be an issue unless you fly into the side of a mountain but then nothing would save you anyways and you can put an chute in the Katmai for emergencies when there is not suitable Terrain on which too land.

Sorry if I'm blunt at times and I'm not totally positive on Everything Katmai, however it's probably the wisest plane for anyone in the market right now, just maybe not the sexiest, however the King Katmai does look pretty hot, will it cruise at 150knots? :)

[kwmoore]

You can count me in as one of those who likes to read about all the latest and greatest and gets excited about it, as doubtless you know based on the Forums we both frequent...
Sorry if I'm blunt at times and I'm not totally positive on Everything Katmai, however it's probably the wisest plane for anyone in the market right now, just maybe not the sexiest, however the King Katmai does look pretty hot, will it cruise at 150knots? :)
Hey, no worries, airplanes are all discretionary purchases, nobody really needs one. The point is fun and enjoyment. :) The 260se/300se/Katmai is certainly not the right choice for everyone. If you find that, even though it (or any other plane) seems to fit your needs but you're nonetheless making a long mental list of "improvements" that you want, then at some point it may be that the object of your affections is not going to make you happy.

The ins and outs of FAA certification can make even minor changes a nightmare, especially for a small business like PPP. This is quite different from other industries and it certainly does inhibit experimentation and innovation. Each change has to be evaluated pretty ruthlessly from a risk/return perspective. Over the years I have known Todd, I've concluded that his intuition is quite good about these things. I've made a number of suggestions in the past to which he politely listened; now that I'm more familiar with the GA marketplace I realize how ludicrous my suggestions were. :rolleyes:

...the King Katmai does look pretty hot, will it cruise at 150knots? :)
With standard gear and speed kit, it should push or maybe exceed 160. I don't think it will get to 150 with the Alaskan bushwheels, but low-mid 140's should be achievable at the higher altitudes, probably 10,000 and above. Don't ask me how I know this. ;) Todd recently completed a 260 hp Katmai with the Bushmaster-sized gear and gear fairings--larger than the standard gear but smaller than the Bushwheels for sure--and it was 146 or 147 at 7500 as I recall (see the PPP blog). This bodes well for a "King" at higher altitudes with IO-550, larger prop and standard gear with speed kit.

[kwmoore]

But unless i win multiple Lottery's that aint going to happen. :)
Boy, you aren't kidding, I think it's something like $80-100 million to design and certify a new GA single from scratch these days. And that's before you get to deliver even one to a customer. Just think what it would take to then manufacture the plane, recover those costs, and *gasp* make a profit, all the while keeping a price point low enough to sell several hundred units annually in a small, highly competitive marketplace.

My admiration for Cirrus is immense, how did they manage to make it work? :eek: Of course, a new SR22 now goes out the door for $400K plus whereas a few years ago they were in the low $300K range, and their manufacturing costs have likely decreased in the interim. Margins should be much better now. I guess it helps to have very patient investors with DEEP pockets in this game, eh?

[nworth]

This may be completely irrational but the only things that gives me pause is what happens to Aluminum Monocque Airplanes in crashes.
Aluminum airplanes collapse rather spectacularly in crashes and, in so doing, absorb a huge amount of the energy of a crash. This is a good thing.

[n2099x]

You guys have me worried now, a 300se might just blow my doors off! I don't think I can come up with anything slippery enough to over come 40 more ponies. I will be due for a new engine in a couple years but I don't think I want to hang even more power on a tired old airframe. :confused:

Glen

[kwmoore]

You'll still win the efficiency crown.

BTW is the IO-550 certified for 182N and earlier airframes such as yours?

[n2099x]

There is a couple of stc's out there for the IO550 I believe. Maybe I should find a good N model and start over.

Glen

[Todd Peterson]

I just looked at the long range weather forecast for Utah this weekend and it does not look good. Wind and rain look to be forecast for the state on Friday and Saturday. I am still planning on a nice back country adventure in Utah but I think it will probably be the following weekend May 12th and 13th. While I am out there if anyone would like a King Katmai ride I would be happy to give them one.

[joejenie]

Just let me know where to meet you and hopefully I can do it Saturday afternoon next week. I have to be in Long Beach CA for a meeting that morning, but should be back by 1-2 p.m. I can fly in and meet you at any real airport. My TBM won't do those off road turning landings for some reason ;) . You can contact me at 801-726-4321. Look forward to checking this out.

Joe Rainey

[Todd Peterson]

I'll give you a call and see if we can get together for a little King Katmai time. I had another offer come up for next weekend at a lodge in Arkansas that I thought would be fun (of course he just happens to be a 260SE owner). A short grass strip, good demo time and visiting with our friends and customers is always great. The weather system that has been hammering us here in KS is forecast to still be over Arkansas next weekend so that is not going to happen. Weather permitting I will probably head out for Utah on Friday and plan on returning Sunday.

[Todd Peterson]

The weather forecast for Utah is still looking good so the planned trip to test the new King Katmai in some of Utah's back country strips looks to be on. I am planning to take detailed notes on performance along with pictures and video. These will be forthcoming in the upcoming weeks on this forum and our blog.

I already know the IO-550 powered King Katmai is capable of taking off and landing in less than 100 feet with a light load so I am more interested in its performance at higher altitudes with some weight on board. The King Katmai is designed to haul two people, a complete camp site with your dogs and four hours of fuel into short, high elevation strips and that is what I intend to do. While I may do some performance checks light most of the flying will be with the above weight. It seems rather pointless to have an airplane that takes off and lands short when light that is incapable of safely hauling a campsite into the place you would like to visit. The elevation of the strips I intend to visit range from 4,500 feet to over 7,000 feet and the temperature is forecast to be on the warm side. It should make for an interesting flight evaluation. This area of the country is also spectacular so I am looking forward to the weekend.

Everyone that knows me understands that I cannot represent the King Katmai as capable of doing something if I have not actually done it myself. The continued improvement of our airplane also benefits from this type of flight testing. Therefore this trip is very important to me in the overall scheme of things. The trip to Idaho next month will be equally important.

For those of you reading this in Utah..... if you see a strange beautiful new airplane with a nose mounted canard at your airport fueling up come on over and say hi.

[joejenie]

That was a fun time out there in the King Katmai today Todd! Thanks again for taking me out. I hope you have a great weekend because when you get back, I already have a few 182's I need you to research! ;)

Now I need someone to fall out of line so I can move up earlier in the production cycle........ :(

Joe Rainey
Soon to be Katmai owner

[Todd Peterson]

It was my pleasure. I'm glad you enjoyed the ride into Mexican Mountain. The view from the strip was truly incredible. I will be posting a bunch of pictures of the Utah strips I flew into in the upcoming days along with the evaluation of the new IO-550 powered version of the Katmai.

I will also be checking on those airfames you are interested in.