High altitude flight

[Jonathan]

Does anyone have any experience aith the 260 at or near it's service ceiling other than myself.
I have made numerous long trips at 13,000 and above.
While not enough good can be said of the handling qualities of the 260 in the take off, approach, go around and slow flight modes of the aircraft it's high altitude manners are great as well.
I recently flew '396 back to Todd's from KSMO and the entire trip was made at 17,000 with a brief deviation to 19,000 to top some weather. With the manifold pressure at the bottom of the green arc and indicated airspeeds in the high 90's to low 100's the plane hand flew wonderfully although I must admit to taking full advantage of all the avionics suite that '396 has to offer, This meant that the entire IFR flight plan from Santa Monica CA to Todd's in El Dorado was programmed into the Garmin 430 and the entire flight once configured in cruise was made while being in essence a systems manager. Deviations for [cumulus] buildups were performed by only touching the Sandell the GPSS / Heading button or altitude pre-select on the S-Tec 55, truly an enjoyable experience.
The advantages of high altitude flight to name a few are the very low fuel burn rates, little traffic if any to worry about and a greatly expanded host of options should you loose an engine at 17,000 rather than 7,000
One other advantage of flying at that height and being IFR was that while on V190 ahrough the Albuquerque area it seemed that I was the only plane not being chastised for straying close to a TFR (due to numerous fires) or being warned about high terrain in the area.
However, in closing I have to admit my favorite phases of flight in the 260 are take off's, landings and low altitude slow flight work.

[kwmoore]

The highest I've cruised is 12,500. It had no problem getting up there, even on a warm summer day. Even at 11,500-12,500 it was climbing as well as a max-gross skyhawk at sea level, 500-700 fpm. Full throttle was about 18", and IAS was 113-117 with an OAT of 40-45 deg F.

The 260se seems to have a cruise "sweet spot" right around 22"/2400-2450 rpm. Of course you can go faster by pushing the knobs all the way in, but fuel consumption is disproportionately increased compared to the speed gain. 22" at full throttle is right around 8500 feet, so that's where the optimal cruise is in my plane at least. Thus I prefer 8500 or 9500 feet on most trips if they're long enough to make sense to climb that high and if the winds are not unfavorable up there.

More interesting is the effect of altitude on the pilot. I don't have supplemental O2. Altitude tends to slow my reflexes and wits, so I make a point of double checking whatever I'm doing. On a good day--well rested, well fed, well hydrated, with allergies at bay, I don't feel it until 11,500 or even 12,500. On a less-than-good-day, I've felt myself becoming a bit of a dullard as low as 9000! Consequently I am usually reluctant to fly challenging IFR at 9000 or above for any extended period.

[Mike Sullivan]

Jonathan,

Are you using O2 at those altitudes? I would be concerned about my heart without it.

Mike

[Jonathan]

Absolutely!
I am very conservative and follow military guidelines e.g. the mask goes on above 10,000 during the day and above 5,000 at night. You will find that the oxygen really helps night vision!
Many people also chide me for wearing a flight helmet (and mask) on long flights but I have been through enough turbulence to feel it is warranted. Years ago on the way into Las Vegas LAS I was descending through 10,000 in smooth air when I encountered a jolt so great I thought I had hit another aircraft. After literally clearing the stars from my head and ensuring everything was still in the green I noticed that the headliner in the arrow I was flying was actually cracked by my head and the upper band of my David Clark headset. An immediate landing and subsequent check of the aircraft revealed no other damage. This incident is what prompted me to look into flight helmets. Also if you review Kevin Moore’s delivery flight of his Peterson I believe that he put a couple of dents in his headliner on the way home while approaching the Sedona area causing him to decide to spend the night.
One other incident comes to mind, while on a night IFR flight from SMO to PHX we were solid IMC for quite a while at 13,000 we were then cleared down to 11,000 during the rather bumpy descent I noticed a 35 amp discharge on the alternator and a voltage warning light, we had lost our charging system! Fortunately by shutting down the avionics, and then recycling the electrical system in accordance with the checklist we regained our alternator. The point being, while in the descent in bumpy rainy extremely dark IMC this complete shutdown in order to recycle the electrical system and then the avionics left the cockpit extremely dark. (On a side note of course several flashlights were on board and within reach one of which was put to use). This coupled with the fact that modern sophisticated avionics do not simply come back on immediately they must boot up, initialize, and then run through their start up routines. Then the complete flight plan had to be re-entered in the aforementioned flight conditions. This happened to be a flight during which a helmet was worn. Oxygen was in use the entire time and in retrospect immediately thereafter I knew that being on oxygen and having a mask securely attached to my face in those bumpy conditions (not simply with an elastic strap around my head) made a significant contribution to the safety of the flight as well as an interesting log book entry.

[Mike Sullivan]

Jonathan,

We talked some about your flight helmet when you flew Dean's plane down to MYF. Tell me again the manuf. and model #.

Thanks.

Mike

[Jonathan]

Gentex model HGU 33 dual visor helmet
MBU 20/P oxygen mask
CRU 60 adapter
A-14 regulator
42 cubic foot oxygen bottle

You can find a lot of this stuff @ Flight Suits in CA

www.flightsuits.com

AVOX in Van Nuys CA can provide the rest of the oxygen they are in the 818 area code

While the aforementioned equipment is about the most expensive route you can go there IS a reason the military uses it.

You can pick up used equipment cheaper through Aviators World 949.240.9606 Norm currently has a complete HGU 55 helmet for sale, which belonged to the chief test pilot for the B1 project

You may also try Watkins aviation www.watkinsaviation.com

[Mike Sullivan]

Wow!! You're right, they don't give this stuff away. I notice that the manufacturing plant for Flight Suits is located in El Cajon, CA. I may go pay them a visit since I'm now flying out of Gillespie (KSEE).

Mike

[Jonathan]

Mike,

You’re right, don’t forget to call Norm or check Watkins. I purchased my helmet from Watkins, I got really lucky, the helmet was a perfect fit and after a thorough check all the electronics and the integrity of the helmet itself were found to be sound. I paid $450.00 for a complete helmet. My oxygen mask is actually not available from flight suits, you may contact GENTEX directly www.gentexcorp.com they will want to know who the end user is and will quote you an approximate 60 – 90 lead time on a purchase and a price of over $1,200.00 as well! An MBU 12/P is much cheaper but not as comfortable.
Don’t forget the AVOX side of the equation an A-14 regulator yellow tagged will set you back over $1,200.00!
The oxygen bottle is the cheapest part. I purchased a 42 cubic foot steel bottle new for $65.00
Add a coupe to three hundred for a blinker misc. fittings and hoses and you should be able to budget for a complete system.

You may also speak to the service manager at AVOX, he put me in touch with a sailplane pilot in Denver that had a new unused yellow tagged A-14 regulator a 22 foot bottle, blinker and a bunch of fittings. I purchased the whole bunch for $400.00!!!


Jonathan

[Mike Sullivan]

Jonathan,

Amongst other things, I'm in the medical O2 business , so I've already got all the tanks I can use. I'm going to check with my suppliers and see if I can purchase the regulator at cost. I'm afraid I'm at the mercy of Flight Suits on the rest of the stuff.

Mike

[Jonathan]

Mike,

Give me a call at my office 310.391.2246 or on my personal phone 310.650.8804 there a many ways to value engineer a complete system if you are serious.

Jonathan

[kwmoore]

Bringing this thread back to the top in response to Mike's query re high altitude flying in the 260se.

[Mike Sullivan]

Thanks Kevin,

I think I need to talk to Jonathan a bit.

Mike

[n2099x]

I don't hesitate to go high if the winds are worth the trip. I have a portable oxygen system that works fine. I have only had 99X up to about 16,500 but that was at gross over Aspen Co. I have been it the 13,500-15,500 more often and it still flys excellent. Fuel consumption goes way down and ground speeds can be great. Sometimes I go high just to get a smooth ride over the mountains. I often use oxygen long night flights, it helps vision and just makes me more alert.

Glen