Landing the 260se/Katmai

[kwmoore]

Various e-mail exchanges with other owners have prompted me to start this thread. What have you found to be the best technique(s) for consistent slow, smooth landings in this plane? Here's some of what I have learned:

For me, it helps to sit high in the seat for better over the nose visibility in the flare. For a short/soft field landing I establish myself on downwind at 65 KIAS with ~20 degrees of flaps (1/3 to 1/2 of the flap trailing edge showing below the top of the rear window). This will be a power setting of about 16”-17” mp in the 260se or 14-15" in the 260-Katmai. Turning base and final, I control glidepath/descent rate with the throttle. As I roll out on final I start to bring the airspeed back. I use full aft trim on short final, this gives 58-65 KIAS depending on power setting and load/CG position, and a little extra manual back pressure gets the desired 50-55 KIAS (260se) or 45-50 KIAS (Katmai).

If you enter the flare even as fast as 60, power has to come off immediately and you will float a long way: 60 is just too fast! If you’re at 55, you can bring power to idle after beginning the flare and a moderate-longish but acceptable float will result. However the really formidable short field capability of this plane is realized at over-the-fence speeds of 45-50--maybe a bit more in the 260se--carrying some power all the way through to a touchdown with full aft yoke. Not much power--a setting of 13”-14” works for me—but as the yoke is brought full aft the plane will settle smoothly in a nose-up attitude with relatively little float to a cushy touchdown at less than 40 KIAS (260se) or even ~35 KIAS (Katmai) if you're on top of your game! :cool:

Not that I can achieve this every time, but I'm still improving! :)

[Brian]

Kevin,
Thanks for your insight. Although I had thought about asking Todd again, it was great to read your post. Great timing!! I took my AC in for an annual just after practicing a couple of engine out procedures. Well, I made it, but the nose gear definitely got more use than it should have. That bird sinks fast if you have no power and are too low to get airspeed back! My 230 ahuldn't be too far off your settings. Seems like sometimes I make some great landings, but when I mess them up, I really offset the good ones. Fortunately, I always add power quickly before I hit. Nothing like energy management.The tough thing is that no one sees the really good landings, but there is always a crowd at my home airport when I come in too fast and waste the canard. There is a power line a the end of the runway, and although it is not real close, it does disrupt my concentration.I have to discipline myslf to do more slow flight to really feel the AC. Todd makes it too easy when he is flying.I love it when I do the landing right and use the canard. Otherwise, I come in too fast. I'm thinking of quitting longer patterns and just fly them tight and short. What you think about that, assuming I get diligent about the slow flight. It just seems like when I do tight patterns, I do a better landing. Maybe I just fly it too much lke a normal bird. Go figger!!!!?????

[JJbely]

Kevin,

I am still landing too fast and am not used to keep some power so late during the landings but we'll try again.

I think the best way to practice and improve the final seconds of our landings is to overfly a runway at minimum airspeed in ground effect. It's a lot of fun if the airport is not too busy... Just did it this morning over a 11000 feet runway, overflew 6000 feet of runway before putting down short before my exit at minimum speed. Amazing aircraft.

For me a good slow landing is one when you can hear the "whale singing" noise :) during your flare just before the stall warning. That's a sure sign that you are within the small window of airspeed that warranty a short touch down.

I don't feel the need to use full flaps only 20/30 unless I want to clear an obstacle and descend like a parachute, would be interested to know what flap settings are used by others.

Got to reboot my brain , I am flying a Cirrus tomorrow...

JJ

[kwmoore]

I think the best way to practice and improve the final seconds of our landings is to overfly a runway at minimum airspeed in ground effect. It's a lot of fun if the airport is not too busy... Just did it this morning over a 11000 feet runway, overflew 6000 feet of runway before putting down short before my exit at minimum speed. Amazing aircraft.

I have had to do this several times to get a smooth touchdown in gusty crosswind conditions; two landings at Sedona and one at San Luis Obispo come to mind. It's good practice even when you don't need to do it; you really come to appreciate how controllable the Peterson is at 45-50 KIAS. In this plane it's possible to safely salvage many (although not all) botched landings whereas in a stock skylane or other "normal" craft a go-around would be in order.

For me a good slow landing is one when you can hear the "whale singing" noise :) during your flare just before the stall warning. That's a sure sign that you are within the small window of airspeed that warranty a short touch down.
I think that's the air vents just above and in front of the pilot/passenger. I've only heard this in the 260se, never in a stock skylane. The combination of airspeed and angle of attack must be the cause; for me it happens if I'm at 55 or less just before entering the flare.

Got to reboot my brain , I am flying a Cirrus tomorrow...

For a while I was flying both 260se and Cirrus and I found the back-and-forth transition demanding. After flying the Cirrus I would land the 260se too fast and too flat. OTOH coming out of the 260se into the Cirrus I would flare too high and get a thumper landing. :p

[kwmoore]

The 260se and Katmai will develop a significant sink rate below 55 KIAS or so at idle power, although they're nowhere near stalling and still flying just fine. I have found a minimum of 60-65 KIAS--60 in the Katmai--is best for me just prior to beginning the roundout, although I can still hold it off for a touchdown at 40-45 indicated.

Others' experience?

[Alex Beylin]

Talking about landings - in my Cardinal and the 182RG I rent sometimes, slipping the plane on final (no flaps) is the solution I had been taught to being too high. How does the canard effect slips - are they even allowed? Forgot to ask / try during my dual with Todd....

[kwmoore]

Talking about landings - in my Cardinal and the 182RG I rent sometimes, slipping the plane on final (no flaps) is the solution I had been taught to being too high. How does the canard effect slips - are they even allowed? Forgot to ask / try during my dual with Todd....
Slips are certainly allowed but I think you'll find they are not as effective for losing altitude as in a conventional plane.

I have found that putting in full flaps, pitching for 45-50 KIAS with minimal or idle power gets a very good descent gradient, even if your descent rate in fpm isn't that high. If needed, you can bring flaps back to ~20 degrees to achieve that last 50-80 feet of desired altitude loss, then bring in some power to slow the descent rate and flare for landing. It's great fun to practice this--enjoy! :cool: